Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. 5000 COUNTY ROAD 46A Sanford, FL ROBERT SPROUL OBITUARY Sproul, Robert R.C. Picking up the bottle is a CHOICE, and thus a moral failure and sometimes a crime (when they get behind the wheel drunk). @ Velour: I can believe it, Leslie, that Christians couldnt safely share this information in their churches about their families without judgment, put downs, and potential gossip. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. The Pittsburgh Press. Hes apparently a carbon copy of Mark Driscoll, only with an alcohol problem. It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. I quoted the whole thing because it made me think of the whole PK phenomenon which may have played a role in RC2s character formation. This is not cool. No, they dont take those kinds of positions. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. And I agree with #3 the kicker is, does HE want treatment? This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. Sproul, Jr. has a serious drinking problem; I know you have suffered from people in your family with this disease, and there is controversy about responsibility versus the helplessness of illness; While its good that he is in therapy, where is his accountability with other recovering alcoholics? My wife walked this bumpy road with me and patiently ignored me when I reacted out of hurt. They dont either. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. They are quite different. It just says any and all sin can send a person to Hell, not that all sins are the same or equal. Comparisons between yourself and Sproul are a little mismatched. I am glad that Al-Anon has helped you. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. Heres just one example of his cult-like practices. Sproul Sr. will experience MUCH MORE suffering than he is right now. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). Based on Velours behavior in this thread especially, she isnt quite as kind-hearted or caring as you and her other friend who usually jumps to her defense feel she is. Sproul Jr. needs serous help. Its also not public information. . But its a long story, and might strip away my teens anonymity, so I wont go into further detail. If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. There are so many of us, Lisa. Its not about hypocrisy, its about the fact that we all have feet of clay and yet strive to do what is right, stumbling as we keep walking. I wish to God I had not had to learn what I have about addictions. I thought she was referring to a professed believer who would not repent, but I may have been reading between her lines. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. As the saying goes, A.A. Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. Pain is no fun and draining. Not everyone can financially afford to see a MHP, either. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? Even if his church wanted to help him get clean and sober and go into treatment, he very likely has the people under him (the ones who stay) brainwashed enough that they believe that a) he can do no wrong, and b) if he is said to have done something wrong, it is actually persecution and not that he has done anything wrong, because (see point a). To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Methinks you proclaimed the gospel. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. Would love to see some stats on that. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. (P.S. How does keeping an alcoholic in the church help that person, or, more specifically, rid them of the alcoholism? If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. You know how to contact her. For R.C. This is the case with RC2. 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. Marriage & Divorce. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. But I also fully agree with you. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. So I was only saying what the Bible says. I was only thinking of verse 11. So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. I did read your post, Daisy. Membership Covenants The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. an invitation to share his/her story. Maybe H.A. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. My heart goes out to you and your family, Deb. She did however advocate that people with addictions be kicked out of the church. Sprowl Funeral Sprowl Funeral and Cremation Care is compassionately serving the family of Richard Mark Williams, 48, who passed away on February 20, 2023. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. My wifes oldest son is alcoholic. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. Barbara Roberts wrote: I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. So no, there is no authoritative structure. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. So, my personal opinion is that churches need to stay out of medicine and medicine needs to stay out of religion and pew people as well as leadership need to try very hard to quit trying to tell each other what to do in the areas of medicine and certain other areas which we are not discussing here right now. My DSMIV refers to substance related disorders, general alcohol abuse, alcohol dependence, etc. 0SD#SHo D endstream endobj startxref 0 %%EOF 545 0 obj <>stream @ okrapod: The church. R.C. Because if the focus is on the booze, and he from all appearances sobers up (which he could very well do) then where does that leave those of us who are his spiritual abuse victims? @ Velour: Imagine if I, a member of one of these churches, a lowly women less, was caught gambling or driving under the influence? The sin is not in the drinking of the wine itself, it is in violating the conscience (vv. understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things?Daisy wrote: Daisy, O shoot, in case you wondered why I addressed my last comment to you. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. @ Velour: They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. Sadly those poor folks he advised not to take their medicines were far more intelligent and realistic than Sproul Jr. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. I shouldnt have used the term unpleasant because Al-Anon isnt that at all. I have a common interest with one individual vintage automobiles. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? But Im going to respond a little further. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? Vastly different things. Im glad you got out of your situation, too, and have learned much from reading your comments and resources. Yes, I would much rather malign him for the blasphemous statements he makes, like this one from http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/: If there ever was an obscenity that violates contemporary community standards, it was Jesus on the cross. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking . It beat opioids for me. R.C. Thanks ever so much. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. Dont imagine anything but being run out on a rail. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. Please be assured that I didnt use the phrase Hurting people hurt people combatively, but I wont deny it may have been unwise. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. Yes, indeed; RC Sproul Snr (and his buddy MacArthur) is one of the most dangerous false teachers around, spewing forth a false gospel; Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. Velour wrote: Dr. R.C. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. 2. He needs to be in treatment and his family needs to be in special support groups for dealing with an alcoholic relative and learn how to take care of themselves. Lisa clearly doesnt understand the scope of Drug Court, the cases they can legally accept (felony indictments are an immediate and mandatory disqualification), but this isnt surprising. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). We know each others positions. I doubt it. Start owning up to what you do. On the other hand, theres nothing compelling me to take insulin. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. I lost a cousin to drunk driving incident many years ago- she was a mother of one child. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. How much can I eat and not gain weight? I am not surprised that an active alcoholic is pushing drinks on everyone around him, as it makes him seem normal and justifies his drinking. 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